Characters, roles and our perception of things.

Topic: Shadow Realm Note

Users: @Graham @SuzyQ Beb Chris gkscotty|CoH

irc.simpworks.com

[Archonix]

This is loosely inspired by the "deeper thoughts" topic around here, but it's a little different. When i was at university we spent a great dael of time in lectures for a module called "Media Analysis", which mostly consisted of large meaningless words being applied to odd french films about bikes. Occasionally a really good film would be ruined for us by constant use of the words "gendered gaze", "oedipus complex" and "This large cake is a phallic representation"*.

But that's by the by because, believe it or not, I actually learned some useful things on that course. One of them was to examine the roles taken by characters, rather than the characters themselves. This can sometimes reveal things about a character that isn't immediately obvious from their base existence. In the best cases it can short-circuit some part of our brain and make us unconsciously respond to the very primitive archetypes those roles represent; the mother, the saving prince, the evil authority figure...

Roles are an interesting subject because they're often very unrelated to our conscious perception of a character. (Don't worry, I'm getting to the link with futurama/simpsons now ). Roles are often as much about our perception as they are about the actual intended role of the character, and they can reveal aspects of ourselves that might not be apparent to us. For example... the common view of Marge is that she is a mother. Most people also see her as a nag, and a fun-spoiler - unconsciously responding to their own negative perception of their own mother as an authority figure taking away their "fun" in their youth. Most people grow out of this attitude and realise that their mother did what she did for love, and was usually right as well. It can be a painful experience to figure that one out. Some people consciously mature, but subconsciously retain their negative perception of the mother figure, which can cause a little confusion.

What's interesting is that some people don't see Marge as a mother. They see her as an activist, as some sort of walking political statement. She is consciously assuming the so-called traditional gender role and subverting it by acting it out in an ironic fashion. This isn't my view, but it can happen... Others still see her as an adventurer trapped in a mothering body. She seeks excitement, but unlike some other mother-figures she actually finds i quite often, though she's moderated and restrained by responsibility. In that she becomes something of a mixture of archetypes.

Now this becomes even more interesting (to me, at least) in relation to something Christina raised to me the other day, about not only Marge, but Leela. leela is not what most people would call a mother. She has adventures, she's unrestrained and free. She's a successful single woman. Everythign Marge apparently isn't. Underneath, though, they're very similar. Both have to expend a certain amount of time taking on the mothering role to an adult male figure who should know better - Marge has Homer, Leela has Fry. Both have a group over whom they have certain responsibilities; Marge has her family, Leela has the PE crew. These are otherwise superficial similarities that betray something about their deeper roles and, in another way, my own perceptions of those roles.

In essence, Leela is Marge made free of the 'shackles' of family responsibility. That freedom rankles against some, who still resent their mother for being in authority over them. Without wanting to sound like the crazier sort of feminist there's a certain amount of gender resentment in play here. Leela often comes in for two sorts of criticism; either she's a slut (an insult I've seen thrown on this very forum at least once by a now departed member) who sleeps around for reasons that are never clear (but may be to do with avoiding Fry, teasing Amy or just being a woman), or she's mean and cruel for not loving Fry. Superficially these two criticism seem completely opposed to each other; one places a moral objection on to Leela's relationship with men in general, whilst another places a moral imperative on to her relationship with Fry in particular.

In other ways they're the same argument. Leela, whilst being female and a superficial mothering figure, is not acting our her mothering role in the desired fashion. She doesn't devote all her attention to her 'family', rejects Fry and prefers to remain unattached. In doing so she rejects the juvenile perception of what a mother should be and causes resentment. The unconscious desire for Leela to be a mother is also behind some of  the ever-present desire to see her and Fry's relationship progress at the expense of all other desires. In some it becomes an unhealthy desire, and the inevitable feeling of rejection that occurs when Leela refuses to fall in to this perceived role brings up a great deal of animosity that has been reserved for use against the perceived mothering figure. The insults then hurled, that Leela is a 'slut' or is somehow less suitable as a character because of her rejection of Fry, are expressions of that resentment against the mothering authority figure, often from subconsciously juvenile egos. This spawns character hate and (often) bad fanfiction**; the former rejects the character in turn, moving on to other things, whilst the latter tries to re-create the character in their own ideal.

Idealisation of a character can take on many forms, and the reaction when that character inevitably fails to live up to that ideal can be quite informative about a person's perception of life. Next time you find yourself criticising a character it might be worth pausing to think about why you're doing it.

I shall get off my high-horse now.

*These are not the exact words, but there were times when anything was compared to a phallus and described in highly sexual terms. The woman who most often spoke like this was often seen eating muffins afterward. What that would say about her character... having said that, I never saw her eating a banana.

**Of course this isn't to say that all 'shipping fanfic is bad. In fact I expect most of it is well written and - consciously - entirely well intended. People like to see relationships bloom and succeed because it gives them a feeling of well-being and hope for the present and future. It's just that, sometimes, the subconscious reason for re-assigning the role of a character can be very different from the consciously stated goal.

[Assistant Crone]

Leela often comes in for two sorts of criticism; either she's a slut (an insult I've seen thrown on this very forum at least once by a now departed member) who sleeps around for reasons that are never clear (but may be to do with avoiding Fry, teasing Amy or just being a woman), or she's mean and cruel for not loving Fry. Superficially these two criticism seem completely opposed to each other; one places a moral objection on to Leela's relationship with men in general, whilst another places a moral imperative on to her relationship with Fry in particular.

It could be that Leela is trying to find her equal, and getting a bit desperate in the process. She may have a mothering role but there is no fathering role among the main cast. This search for an equal might explain her initial attraction to Zapp and any character who appears as successful and competent as she is, and her continued rejection of Fry. As she said to Zoidberg, "I love his boyish charm, but I hate his childishness." Along with the fans' desire to see Leela take on more of a mothering role, there may also be the desire for Leela to avoid trapping herself in Marge's life.

Makes me wonder how Fry's role compares to Homer's. And where, I ask you, does Zoidberg fit into this discussion?

[Lord Kingsley]

For me, I think it has less to do with Leela and more to do with Fry.  I always find myself rooting for the guy who goes after his unrequited love interest and doesn't give up.  That's why I want to see the idea of them being a couple at least explored.  It may work, or he may find out that they're totally wrong for each other.  The exploration of the story arc is what I'm interested in.

[Archonix]

Yes, the story arc is an interesting one, though personally I reckon it'd change the dynamic of the whole show too much if they actually got together. On the other hand, who knows? I actually would like them getting together but at the same time I have the same sort of opinion as Chris, in that a massive portion of the futurama fandom seems to spend an inordinate amount of time on the subject to the point where it simply gets boring. In some sense the mini-essay above is an attempt to try and figure out why.

I wouldn't want people to assume I'm saying all this in order to make them feel like I'm putting them in to boxes. It's based on a lot of assumptions and theory rather than actual knowledge of how people think, and for most of it I've tried to make that clear. I hope I have anyway.

Beb has an interesting point too. Perhaps Leela doesn't have a soulmate? She has been portrayed as lonely in some episodes and this might play in to subconscious fears about being alone too. Ahh the mysteries of life and too much education...

[Lisabella]

Interesting points, Graham. 

The points about Marge are fascinating - I don't exactly see her as an activist, but we've seen her in canon have plenty of strong opinions about politics and even gender issues.  I think she's actually of two minds, and it shows up in the way she parents Lisa: she hopes that her daughter will lead a peaceful, placid existance and be an exterior representation of how good her mothering skills are, and on the other hand she encourages her daughter to follow her own path, actively paying attention to Lisa's life.  I've noticed she doesn't often encourage Lisa's rabble-rousing tendancies, mostly because she seems to fear it'll cause the town to heap more shame and indignation on her lap for raising an "out-of-control family".

How long has it been since we've seen Marge paint, incidentally?  Since "Mom N' Pop Art"?  I've missed her artistic streak.

The issues people seem to have with Leela's character - the ones you pointed out - are spot-on.  I think it's interesting that one of her goals is to marry a guy who's a lot like her, if not physically (Alcazar) than in terms of skill set and strength (Zapp).  Her other major boyfriends came about as a part of her self-esteem issues (Adlai, the boy she dreamed of but didn't pay attention to her until she was "normal") or her ambition to marry up, which often pales when she realizes she just plain wants to be loved.  Sean, her perfect past boyfriend, was all about mutuality - he was her utter equal, so that's why she looks back on him with constant longing.  My thoughts, of course :-). 

People forget that a lot of Leela's actions stem from her life in the Orphenarium - both the steeliness she developed to deal with the outside world and her basic need to be loved because she was never adopted.  Her male-related flight of fancies ("If you were my kid, you'd be in so much trouble...with your father...when he came home...from the senate...") seem to push her toward marrying a politician, which may just mean she's attracted to power.

The whole Fry thing is intriguing - she's drawn to him but he ISN'T more powerful than her, or even her equal on most levels.  I think she's sort of confounded by her feelings for him.

Spoiler (hover to show)

I will laugh heartily if she really falls for and marries another guy in this new movie.  There will be mass internet hysteria.

What Graham noted about 'ship fiction for them is fairly correct - there are tons of nice, intelligent exceptions to the rule - but even more interestingly it's not anything unique to 'Frama fandom.  Weirdly that theme is a reccurent trope in fandoms where a male character yearns for a female character and either never gets her or is constantly rejected or ignored (Daphne/Niles in Frasier fandom, ferinstance; occasionally Ross/Rachel in Friends fandom, etc., etc.).  It must be a real sociological thing. 

Also worth noting is that in a good number of Fry/Amy fics, Leela is turned into the woebegotten and jealous third wheel in the triangle or is simply killed off.  I don't know what THAT says.

[Shockwave]

Leela is kind of in that crossover point between being young and enjoying life and looking to settle down and have a family. I think she's mainly looking to make sure she picks the right guy more than anything, and tends to be rather picky/careful on one hand to make sure she does, but on the other hand also tends to make bad choices and go for the wrong guys because she tends to go for handsome/successful men who are jerks in a great majority of cases (such as Zapp, Adlai and Chaz). And while I wouldn't ever call her a slut, she tends to be rather willing to give herself to men if she feels sorry for them (as evidenced with Zapp, Alkazar, etc.). So, she's kind of being careful to choose the right guy in some ways, but does tend to make the wrong choices despite this, and can easily be distracted from weaknesses that would otherwise be obvious and misled by any man who shows signs of above average success (Captain of starship, Rich Doctor, Mayor's Aide, etc.)

With regards to Fry, she's admitted that she, in her words, "loves his boyish charm, but hates his childishness" and has really shown to appreciate that he really cares for her. Fry may not be the smartest or most successful guy out there, but he really does care about her, probably moreso than anybody since her parents. Perhaps Fry's devotion and an effort to be more mature will get him there. Signs from Universe 1 would suggest it's possible.

Regarding shippers and shipper writers, I think many tend to be blinded by many things. They'll tend to ignore characterisation and basic logic to just get the characters together, which tends to in many cases lead to the characters falling in love in an unrealistic and rather forced manner that really jars. This could simply be fixed by analysing the characters further, really determining how both feel,  and --most importantly I feel-- putting aside their own feelings for a moment and analysing the shippy situations in the show to avoid reading anything that's not really there. For example, many seem to read far too much into the end of "The Devil's Hands are Idle Playthings" I feel, simply because it was the last episode made (thus far). The truth is, it's really no more shippy than the end of "The Why of Fry" or "Love and Rocket" when you look at it, but still, conclusions are made that seem to suggest Fry and Leela went home together for wild passionate sex right after the "series" finale.

Yes, I do feel it brought them closer than before. That's actually why I love the series: the romantic angle is not just a moment of Leela falling for Fry, but is more of a collection of moments they share together over the years that bring them closer. Fry, I feel, was initially just interested in Leela for basic hormonal reasons, but has actually come to appreciate, care and love her over the course of four seasons. Likewise, Leela went from not being interested at all into starting to care for him as a close friend, then realising he truly cared for her too became mildly attracted to this and other aspects of his character. But I still feel there's more to the relationship to go from here before they are a couple. Things don't grow overnight, and I still think both characters need to grow a little more if they're going to come closer.

[Archonix]

Well look at that, this thread got another use. Sean. I'd forgotten his name.

Anyhoo, I like the replies we've got here so far. I like your last coupe of paragraphs especially, Kenneth, because I agree with it so much. It's always fun to have people who agree with you. You're right about "Devils Hands" for sure. I thought it marked a step-change in their relationship but not in a really romantic sense, more a sort of acknolwedgment that things are a little different to how they were. For all we know, Leela beat him up with his own holophoner for being so presumptuous... not likely  though.

It seems that Leela is a little unsure of her own role then, from what we've all said. Mid-life crisis? Then again she's still quite young so it's more like a quarter-life.

I wonder if Leela paints...

[Shockwave]

I wonder if Leela paints...

[Archonix]

Hah, wishful thinking. Excellent!

[Lisabella]

For example, many seem to read far too much into the end of "The Devil's Hands are Idle Playthings"

True - I've seen so many fics that continue the show after that ep that end with Fry and Leela running off and doing everything from have sex to getting married.  I've always translated her reaction as "Leela's opened up a little to Fry; instead of shouting him down, she's listening to what he has to say."  So it's more a nudge-promise.  "Love and Rocket" and, of course, "The Sting" are incredibly shippy, the later even more so than the former.

[Wilde Grey Yonder]

I've said this before: I never found "The Sting" (my favourite episode!) to be a romance episode in the way of "Parasites Lost" or "Love and Rocket" etc.. Yes, it does give Fry's love for Leela a lot of coverage, but there is no way the plot would change if they were just close friends. Losing a friend to death or illness is no easier than losing a loved one. Besides, since the episode is from Leela's POV, and she doesn't (to my knowledge) love Fry, her friendship for him (and guilt for his sake) is the thing that matters most for the bulk of the episode, not Fry's love for her. You could argue that the end of the episode changes that, but would he have acted any differently if he "just" loved her as a friend?

My main (and only, pretty much) problem with "The Sting" is that it gives some canon support for the recurring fanfic plot where Leela suffers all the pangs of hell itself after Fry dies or leaves her or something.

I agree that "Love and Rocket" is very shippy. Good, though. If Fry and Leela had shacked up after that saccharine-yet-brilliant moment with the Valentine's Day candy, I wouldn't have been surprised.

EDIT: The whole discussion about Leela and Marge is very interesting, but I have nothing to add to the points already made.

As for the ending of "The Devil's Hands...", I feel it went for the open-ended approach to the whole relationship question (probably wisely, as it seems to have satisfied both 'shippers and rabid anti Fry/Leela fans). There's really no way of telling whether that last Holophonor image was followed by a kiss or a slap or neither.

[Lisabella]

Chris, as always, makes wise points .  I think she would've felt just as bad had it, say, been someone else she was very close friends with.  I'm tempted to say she'd feel as torn up about anyone else dying on her watch - she has issues about being Perfectly In Control All Of The Time.  My only note of dissent is the little lilt in her voice when she says, "I've never been treated so romantically by my imagination before!"

My main (and only, pretty much) problem with "The Sting" is that it gives some canon support for the recurring fanfic plot where Leela suffers all the pangs of hell itself after Fry dies or leaves her or something.

Missy's least-favorite Fry/Leela plotline thread EVAR and it gets repeated a LOT in fandom.  It's as if Leela has no drive of her own outside of the relationship for some people.

I remember being very surprised that they never hooked up after Love & Rocket.  After "U Leave Me Breathless" you think they'd've gone in that direction.

[Shockwave]

You could argue that the end of the episode changes that, but would he have acted any differently if he "just" loved her as a friend?

I think he would, actually. Leela had other friends checking up on her on a regular basis, but Fry was the only one who practically never left her side. If he, as you put it, "'just' loved her as a friend" then he would have probably checked up on her on a daily basis, but the action of never leaving her bedside for weeks really shows a devotion that goes far beyond friendship.

That said, that factor only covers Fry's side of the relationship, which is barely ever in question. Leela's feelings for Fry tend to be the most speculated upon and are very erratic across the fanship board. And too many shippers want them to end up together, and think that the end justifies the means when it comes to the process of getting them there, characterisation and logic be damned.

[sabrina_diamond]

Wow, some really excelllent essayies about characters, I look forwards to more about Marge and Lisa and maybe Homer?