The treatment of Men in The Simpsons.

Topic: The Matrix...It's like it's from another millennium

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[Archonix]

Here's one for you. I have read various articles in the past that alluded to, or directly spoke about, various feminist issues that turn up in The Simpsons (and perhaps to a lesser extent Futurama, but it's not really been around long enough to get that sort of cachét yet). Seems Gender studies has a big downer on the family for not having Marge be sufficiently post-feminist and 'liberated' (by which they - the article writers, all media studies graduated no doubt - mean she acts like a fairly decent human being and doesn't go around sleeping with every man she can find, strip naked at every opportunity and run around in the fields worshiping gaia whilst marveling at the beauty of her newest 'feminine companion' [their words], and all those other things that a certain group of modern feminists seem to think feminism really means).

It just struck me that we don't hear much about how men are treated in the show. There aren't any articles about male stereotypes that I've been able to find.

Is it just me?

[Assistant Crone]

Off the top of my head: it seems that there are no regular intelligent non-evil male characters. If, say, Martin was female, his braininess wouldn't be a joke. In the Simpson family*, the women are the bright ones**. OFF comedy stupidity is nearly always attributed to male characters, which could explain the low female-male ratio.

* Regardless of that 'Simpson gene' episode
** Bart's certainly clever, but he's often portrayed as Jerkass Homer Jr.

[Fionn]

Well, yes, the average male IQ in Simpsons does seem to below average, discounting the evildoers (Sideshow Bob, Cecil, Mr. Burns), and the characters who, though intelligent, are pretty much jokes (Martin-nerd/geek, Bob-villain/buffoon, Skinner-momma's boy/screwed-up verteran, Frink-Jerry Lewis-esque proffessor, Mel-???).  While intelligent guys are hard to find, stupid guys are plentiful, and although Homer is the first one that comes to mind, he's not even the stupidest.  Barney and Chief Wiggum (the city's chief of police, for crying out loud) are noticeably more inept, gullible, and generally dangerous to be around.  Even characters smarter that Homer, such as Lenny and Carl, seem a few taquitos short of a combination plate.  Heck, the only smart males I could think of, barring those I previously disqualified, are one-time characters, like Mr. Bergstrom or Frank Grimes.

[A Spy in Mancunia]

@Fionn: You forgot to mention Mr Burns among the intelligent-but-evil men of Springfield. I fully agree that Homer isn't the stupidest guy on the show.

Beb basically said what I wanted to. On an average (I haven't made a statistical analysis or anything), the female characters seem to be more "seriously" conceived than the male ones. In the Simpsons family itself, Marge and Lisa are somewhat idealised (though they do have flaws), as the "perfect" long-suffering wife and the high-IQ kid, while Homer and Bart are below average (Homer in intelligence and general coping skills, Bart in behaviour). Marge isn't funny. By this, I don't mean "waa, I hate Marge, she should die or have her character turned into that of a loopy female Homer", I mean that Marge is the straight man of the comedy, something of a Francine Grimes who's learnt to cope with the madness. Perhaps that's why she has the arguably most grotesque exterior of all the main characters.

This seems to be the rule for most of the show. Of the female characters, how many are comedic, i.e. fill some comedy stereotype and are meant primarily to be laughed at, rather than sympathised with or used as foils for whackier characters? Off the top of my head: Patty & Selma, Agnes Skinner, Helen Lovejoy, Jessica Lovejoy (a one-time character) occasionally Mrs Krabappel (who fills the "cynical divorcee" stereotype). Whereas it seems to me that most of the male cast is there to be laughed at: Lenny, Mr Burns (the panto villain), Smithers, Martin, Ralph, Prof. Frink, Barney, Moe, Chief Wiggum, Milhouse (didn't even have an emotional moment in the divorce episode), countless minor one-timers like the nerds... and so on.

Here I go, talking about women again. Force of habit. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the majority of female character are either idealised or at least not caricatured the way the majority of male ones are.

As for male stereotypes, a thought. I'm not as familiar with American television as I could be, so now I'm just going on the often-repeated statement that The Simpsons is the sit-com that broke the old sit-com mould: you know, patriarchal-yet-wise father, overly mature children, living in a villa of a size that only presidents and dictators usually can afford etc. If this is true, then Homer is pretty much the father ("mother" would be inappropriate in this context) of the couch potatofied, none too bright, instinct-driven, usually working-class family man that I've seen held up as an offensive male stereotype in modern TV comedy. (Say Al Bundy. Say Pete Griffin. Better yet, don't. Say Gustav Svensson in Swedish sitcom Svensson Svensson for an example across the pond.)

While this certainly isn't the only male role on the show, it might be the show's most strongly emphasised male role. So, perhaps some worrying about the future of our young boys should be in order.

It also strikes me that Marge's contented-housewife role is probably the one that has changed the least from those old sit-coms nobody wants to go back to. In fact, that's one reason I like Malcolm in the Middle. Not because Lois has a job, or is the real boss in the family, but because she is a jerk, does freaked-out things and is made fun of on the show. Equal-opportunity whackiness.

[Lisabella]

Excellent topic, Graham.

IMOHO, all of the characters are extremely broad charactures, but the men aren't more exempt than the woman from riddicule.  Some male characters (Chalmers, Wiggum, Burns) show that power corrupts absolutely; some of them are obvious shots at the show's precieved audience (CBG, Martin - occasionally - ).  It's a simple fact that the men aren't prizes, either, and they certainly don't act as postmodern "sensitive" men should.

But I've never felt that Marge was anti-feminist; in her teen years she's clearly shown as being progressive, and in the early episodes she's shown as politically active.  I think a lot of people get Marge's apparent inner mantra ("Be nice, don't make waves"), which is a natural part of her character as a lack of feminist activity. 

[Kiyosuki]

How I've always looked at it is its not that the men are literally stupid, its that for various reasons they are either denied or deny themselves their full ability in some way.

Its hard to explain, but I think stupidity on this show at its best can be looked at as kind of a double sided thing. Like...what is stupidity? Is it just the lack of brain power? Retardation? Or is it an almost unlimited series of other reasons? Absent mindedness, bad education, lazyness and indifference (those are actually huge things in the show.), naitivity, awkward behavior, ignorance, simply being worn out? Those are just some of the things if you look at it in a certain way. Burns seems to have had quite a bit of self doubt, Smithers is too smitten by him to move on to anything, Barney's potentially brilliant and talented but he's an alchoholic. Bart's got more going on inside than one may first think, Skinner's got the potential to be badass but he's just weak willed. Moe's insensitive seemingly but he's a lot more sensitive than he lets on, he just doesn't care usually. We've seen Clancy can actually be formiddable if he has the will, and his Ralph may seemingly be a dim-wit but he has this whole universe worth of stuff going on inside that crazy head of his so who knows there.

List could go on and on, and with the ladies I definitely don't think they're much better off. They suffer from the same things really, its just that there's a lot more male characters. I think its not women that are overall better thats the message, its just that Lisa and Marge are reasonable and intelligent. But even they're not immune to lapses in judgement and stupidity. If anything this show's gone to great lengths to show that sometimes the smartest characters can sometimes be the dumbest.

In general, I think the message has always been that everyone's got quirks, and everyone can be either a jerk or be a pretty cool person to various degrees. No one's as easy and simple as their stereotype may make you want to think. I think in the end stupidity is usually just plain ignorance in this show more than it is an individual quirk.

[fellranger]

It just struck me that we don't hear much about how men are treated in the show. There aren't any articles about male stereotypes that I've been able to find.

Is it just me?

Nope, it's just that there isn't much in the way of grants for researching male stereotypes and "issues".   And speaking as a chap, I'm eternally grateful  .
Interesting topic though.