Your deeper, inner thoughts about the characters.

Topic: The Matrix...It's like it's from another millennium

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[A Spy in Mancunia]

I also don't like the "effeminate=gay" stereotype. Liking "girly" things like flowers or poety doesn't automatically make someone gay. That's silly, IMO. But now I'm going off-topic.

Off-topic perhaps, but still FULLY AGREED.

(Take heed, show writers who try to make Smithers a transsexual as well as gay.)

[Lisabella]

(As a matter of fact, I'm reading a fanfic which includes a MartinxAllison pairing.)

*votes for more Martin x Alison - I think that'd work pretty nicely ficwise*

[Tyrannus]

So the thead is no longer dead? Anyways, just a few thing on the rebound Kokoro

I think recycling one-time characters isn't really necessary

I think this statement applies best to fanfiction, when certain one/few-time characters appear in fanfiction it's often seems like they're put in there because...well.. they just are included (IMO Jessica Lovejoy is by far the most notable example of this, then again I never really understood why she's so popular). It's fine if there's a point for doing this but often there isn't, and in one or two cases (Jess and Bob) it gets rather tiring.

I'm not really fond of labeling kids with sexual orientations before they even hit puberty. ^^;

It is quite odd that the writers are trying to label homosexuality on prepubescent children, and it's not just Milhouse either, there was a throwaway line which implied the same with Ralph (although this probably won't be permanent because, as I said it was just a throwaway gag) and bisexuality for either Sherri or Terri...sort of. That "Tommy" from "Hungry, Hungy Homer" looked more like a slightly butch [explaining the boyish name] girl than a heart-throb boy, to the best of my recollection boys aren't drawn with eyelashes, not even Marty-Stu Colin. Also, it might of been a sound error or bad hearing but it sounded like Homer said "she's simply breathtaking". So yeah, it's a bit creepy yet a bit interesting.

People seem to like Janey (at least in fanfiction, where she's used a lot)

Actually, most of the time she's just there as someone to hang around with Lisa rather than a liking for her. And Janey could do with being "established" first (basically meaning she's a bit flat for true fleshing out) before being the subject of a proper episode and should start with a major role in a sub-plot first (most of the characters listed have already had that privalege)
By the way, I'd like to see a Martin/Allison pairing, they seem to have so little in common other than itelligence. Allison being somewhat quiet and an "everybody's best friend" type of person and Martin the wannabe badass who can get extremely visious when provoked. The contrast of the two has so much potential.

Re: Haggard...ness: Skinner deserves a bit of focus in this topic. The fact that he still lives with his mother, his slight neat-freakiness (e.g. making sure the school clocks were accurate to the exact second) could also be traced back to his past, he was apparently a rather reckless fellow, regardless of identity and at some point got involved in a drag race that cost him his high school sweetheart. The memory of such a loss may of set in pretty deep and made Skinner quite reluctant to take even minor chances, it makes quite a bit of sense.

Okay,two other topics (but by all means touch upon older ones)
1) Are there any things that are often said about characters that you don't really understand?
2) What developments do you refuse to ackknowlege?

[Kokoro]

I think this statement applies best to fanfiction, when certain one/few-time characters appear in fanfiction it's often seems like they're put in there because...well.. they just are included (IMO Jessica Lovejoy is by far the most notable example of this, then again I never really understood why she's so popular). It's fine if there's a point for doing this but often there isn't, and in one or two cases (Jess and Bob) it gets rather tiring.

I know why Jessica is popular...it's sort of hard to explain...I guess people like her because she's sort of a femme fatale and is like Bart to the extreme. She's manipulative and cunning, I guess people see her as an interesting character to write and explore in fanfics. I admit, the stories I've seen her play a big part in are very interesting. Sideshow Bob...I've never had strong feelings about the character, I have to say.

It is quite odd that the writers are trying to label homosexuality on prepubescent children, and it's not just Milhouse either, there was a throwaway line which implied the same with Ralph (although this probably won't be permanent because, as I said it was just a throwaway gag) and bisexuality for either Sherri or Terri...sort of. That "Tommy" from "Hungry, Hungy Homer" looked more like a slightly butch [explaining the boyish name] girl than a heart-throb boy, to the best of my recollection boys aren't drawn with eyelashes, not even Marty-Stu Colin. Also, it might of been a sound error or bad hearing but it sounded like Homer said "she's simply breathtaking". So yeah, it's a bit creepy yet a bit interesting.

Yeah, Ralph being gay is probably a throwaway statement. It was just a typical "Ralph" moment, hehe. I haven't seen hints of bisexuality in Sherri and/or Terri (O_O??). Nor have I seen "Hungry, Hungry Homer" (or have I...?), but I can understand why this Tommy kid is a heart-throb. Girls tend to like boys who have a certain femininity to them, because, at least in fiction, they're usually the sweet and sensitive type.
Off-topic, but haha, Marty-Stu Colin. Glad I'm not the only one who found he was too perfect. Not to say Colin wasn't a cute kid, but I prefer love interests for Lisa who are endearing, but flawed.

People seem to like Janey (at least in fanfiction, where she's used a lot)
Actually, most of the time she's just there as someone to hang around with Lisa rather than a liking for her. And Janey could do with being "established" first (basically meaning she's a bit flat for true fleshing out) before being the subject of a proper episode and should start with a major role in a sub-plot first (most of the characters listed have already had that privalege)

Good point. I think I was getting ahead of myself by suggesting a Janey-centric episode. Her only defining trait is "fair-weather friend" really...she could use some more "establishment".

By the way, I'd like to see a Martin/Allison pairing, they seem to have so little in common other than itelligence. Allison being somewhat quiet and an "everybody's best friend" type of person and Martin the wannabe badass who can get extremely visious when provoked. The contrast of the two has so much potential.

Interesting how you see a contrast between them. I find Martin and Allison to be kind of similar actually. Both are highly-intelligent and gifted for their age, and are somewhat of an outcast because of it. They both seem to be a bit nerdy or bookish...Martin moreso with the nerdiness. We've also seen that he seems to enjoy poetry and Ernerst Hemingway and whatnot. I'm only assuming Allison is bookish because of her Telltale Heart diorama in "Lisa's Rival". Also, they're both kind of passive, "go-with-it" kind of people. Again, only assuming this with Allison, because we don't know too much about her. That's why I love the endless possibilities of fanfiction ^_^.

Martin has kind of progressed from the sort of snobby kid to a more passive and mellow guy. And it's funny how you find Martin to be a wannabe badass (heh, that's more of a Milhouse trait, IMO), I always found him to be more of the "Teacher's Pet who means well but doesn't fare well/isn't accepted with his classmates" type. I do agree on the "vicious when provoked" trait, as we've seen that he can get out of control in The Simpsons Movie. But most of the time, he tends to be a pushover and takes people's crap.

Another trait I find they have in common is that Allison and Martin are both pretty reasonable and logical. Allison could've gotten really upset about what Lisa did to her diorama, but she handled it maturely and forgave her right away. Martin is really logical with his approach in dividing how they get to share the Radioactive Man comic in "Three Men and a Comic Book". And he's constantly revising the approach to suit Bart's silly demands. "Yeah, what about Sunday?" XD I love that episode.
Anyway, I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes this pairing. It's always struck me as cute and very "hmm, that could work". I'd write a fanfic about it, but my Futurama ones are keeping me busy and I don't think I'm talented enough to write a Simpsons fanfic. -_-"

Okay,two other topics (but by all means touch upon older ones)
1) Are there any things that are often said about characters that you don't really understand?
2) What developments do you refuse to ackknowlege?

On no.2....I never really understood the whole Skinner=Armen Tamazarian. I agree with a comment Harry Shearer made about the episode- "That's so wrong. You're taking something that an audience has built eight years or nine years of investment in and just tossed it in the trash can for no good reason, for a story we've done before with other characters. It's so arbitrary and gratuitous, and it's disrespectful to the audience."
But Ken Keeler has made valid points about the episode in it's defense.

And another thing, how the hell is Ned 60? It was just so pointless, even if he lives by the three "C's". I also don't like that Kirk and Luann Van Houten got back together. I loved "A Milhouse Divided" and really related to him...my parents are divorced too, and my dad reminds me a bit of Kirk. Dunno if that's a good thing, it probably isn't. XD
Maybe it's just my own selfishness...

Whoo, long post. This is a great discussion and it's so satisfying to let all these bottled-up thoughts out. I also love how people are so kind and civil here, whereas NoHomers isn't as kind, to say the least.

[Tyrannus]

Heh, I'm not even finished yet!

Re: Bisexual twin: Actually the scene in "Hungry, hungry Homer" was the implication. As said, boys with feminine qualities are probably popular with the ladies but Tommy looked *Too* feminine to me (again, if Tommy is a guy then he would be the first boy in the show drawn with eyelashes even more girlish than most of the girls) but if you don't remember that scene then you probably won't get where I'm coming from. Considering that the twins get so little screentime compared to characters such as Gil, Crazy cat lady (who sould never of been in the movie, it's insulting enough that even major characters such as Patty and Selma had no lines) who are far less worthy in my eyes which is a crying shame, and that any development is only implied most of the time I cannot be too paranoid about thier lines (metaphoric statement). things like that only come once.

Re: Martin: The whole "wannabe badass" stems from "Bart gets an F", he was so desperate to be popular that he was willing to waste his time trying to help Bart study..and went back on his end of the bargain. In terms of pushoverness, it might be down to Martin possibly biding his time for the best moment to make a comeback (let's face it, when you're waiting to be blown to bits the thing you'll least expect is for some fat kid to wail on you with a giant plank of wood), almost as if he knows how feeble he is and that he couldn't stand up for himself without the element of surprise, as you said, he's a very logical boy.

Re: Colin: I thought it would of been interesting if Colin was the kind of guy who moved from girl-to-girl, faking similar interests as them, and then just ditch them on the spot when he finds someone else who catches his fancy. It would of been a perfect way to explain why he had almost everything in common with Lisa and it would of made Colin a "Fake-stu" and give him more personality while they were at it.

On no.2....I never really understood the whole Skinner=Armen Tamazarian.

It's my fault because I wasn't specific enough but I didn't really want too see the cliches like the quoted. I was thinking more along the lines of Homer being illiterate ["When you dish upon a star"] etc. But that isn't your fault.

Hopefully you have it in you to make a reply, I'm enjoying this level-headed debate to stop now, and don't be afraid to indroduce new topics.
Oh, and while I'm not a member, the NHC seem to be more close-minded than mean (the "Future-drama review thread is a notable example, most of those who didn't praise it got lampooned, and by those standards I would of recieved many flames ).

[Andreas]

but if you don't remember that scene then you probably won't get where I'm coming from.

Here's a pic:

[Tyrannus]

Ah, mucho kudos Andreas, and I still stand by the gender comment.

[Kokoro]

Heh, I'm not even finished yet!

Re: Bisexual twin: Actually the scene in "Hungry, hungry Homer" was the implication. As said, boys with feminine qualities are probably popular with the ladies but Tommy looked *Too* feminine to me (again, if Tommy is a guy then he would be the first boy in the show drawn with eyelashes even more girlish than most of the girls) but if you don't remember that scene then you probably won't get where I'm coming from. Considering that the twins get so little screentime compared to characters such as Gil, Crazy cat lady (who sould never of been in the movie, it's insulting enough that even major characters such as Patty and Selma had no lines) who are far less worthy in my eyes which is a crying shame, and that any development is only implied most of the time I cannot be too paranoid about thier lines (metaphoric statement). things like that only come once.

Now that I see the picture, I can see why the girls liked this kid. Seems like the cool, collected type and he has the side-swept hair and well-kept look that girls love. Heh, he's a cute kid.
I agree that the movie could've used their secondaries a bit better, especially the ones who've been there since the beginning. As you said, some major secondaries like Patty and Selma didn't even have a line. But hey, I still liked the movie enough to see it three times in theaters. (though the 3rd time wasn't really my choice).

Re: Martin: The whole "wannabe badass" stems from "Bart gets an F", he was so desperate to be popular that he was willing to waste his time trying to help Bart study..and went back on his end of the bargain. In terms of pushoverness, it might be down to Martin possibly biding his time for the best moment to make a comeback (let's face it, when you're waiting to be blown to bits the thing you'll least expect is for some fat kid to wail on you with a giant plank of wood), almost as if he knows how feeble he is and that he couldn't stand up for himself without the element of surprise, as you said, he's a very logical boy.

Ah, "Bart Gets an F", I love that episode but I haven't seen it in quite a while. Good point on the popularity thing, but with some researching on the episode, I don't think you're entirely correct (I skimmed the episode capsule at snpp.com). Martin seemed to be unaware that he was unpopular, as he always considered himself "rather popular". But Bart demonstrates that he's really not. Other than that, we don't see much of him wanting to be cool. But I think him wanting to be popular could be a potentially interesting idea.
And yeah, the plank thing was epic. I'd love to wail on people who are mean to me with a plank...*sighs*.

Re: Colin: I thought it would of been interesting if Colin was the kind of guy who moved from girl-to-girl, faking similar interests as them, and then just ditch them on the spot when he finds someone else who catches his fancy. It would of been a perfect way to explain why he had almost everything in common with Lisa and it would of made Colin a "Fake-stu" and give him more personality while they were at it.

Wow, that's a great idea. I would totally love to see that. Colin being a "fake-Stu" would be so intriguing in that it would explain his actions and give him a little more personality, as you said. And I wouldn't mind Colin as much as Lisa's love interest if that happened, because as I said before, I love characters who are endearing yet flawed, and almost all Simpsons characters are. Which may be why I like it so much.

It's my fault because I wasn't specific enough but I didn't really want too see the cliches like the quoted. I was thinking more along the lines of Homer being illiterate ["When you dish upon a star"] etc. But that isn't your fault.

Oh, sorry 'bout that. I'll try to be not so general and I agree on the illiteracy thing. Homer's not bright, but he's not a complete moron, but it seems like that's what the writers want these days. Pity. ...Hmm...I don't really like that Moe is so suicidal now. Well, actually, that's a pretty interesting trait now that I think about it. But it's really sad to watch. 

Hopefully you have it in you to make a reply, I'm enjoying this level-headed debate to stop now, and don't be afraid to indroduce new topics.
Oh, and while I'm not a member, the NHC seem to be more close-minded than mean (the "Future-drama review thread is a notable example, most of those who didn't praise it got lampooned, and by those standards I would of recieved many flames ).

Yeah, you're right, NHC isn't really mean, per se. Just a bit close-minded. I haven't been a member for too long, but I'd hate to get flamed because of not liking Future-Drama. I really did not like that episode. It just bugged me...it's funny, I love the idea of future episodes, but only one has been well-executed, IMO (Lisa's Wedding).
As for new topics...how would you feel if there was a miniseries where the kids were teenagers or of college age? I'll elaborate more later, because I need to go eat dinner. ^^;

[Lisabella]

Heh, I'd like to think we're of the intelligent sort about here.

@Tyrannus: Huh, I thought you were refferencing Martin's "wannabe badassness" to what he did in the movie.  I think Martin wants to be popular more than he wants to be tough, IE: what happened to him in Bart of Darkness.  Unfortunately, he's too niave to realize that what he finds cool isn't with the mainstream at Springfield elementary.  Thus he's a victim of many, many wedgies.

 Tommy's appearence is, I think, a parody of what girls find "simply breathtaking" in a young boy - "non-threatening, Bobby-Sherman-like good looks"

On Jessica's online popularity: two words: Bart Angst .  Sideshow Bob's popularity   stems from one thing IMOHO: his artsiness.  That plus the angsty ending of the Cecil episode, where he'd genuinely turned over a fresh leaf and is being punished for it.

[Kokoro]

^Good points, missy_misery. And I definitely agree about the Jessica thing. Heh, I'm a sucker for angst, I'll admit.

Also, sorry about the tl;drness of my posts, guys. I kind of go off on tangents...heh.

[Lisabella]

@Kokoro Feel free to call me Missy 

Also, long posts are good posts!  Even though I'm making a short one.

[Stretch Dude]

It is quite odd that the writers are trying to label homosexuality on prepubescent children, and it's not just Milhouse either, there was a throwaway line which implied the same with Ralph (although this probably won't be permanent because, as I said it was just a throwaway gag) and bisexuality for either Sherri or Terri...sort of.

Dude, I've never considered you a paragon of rational thought where the twins are concerned, but you are dangerously drifting into "dementedly stupid fanfic" territory with that line of thinking.

[Tyrannus]

Stretch Dude: Oh, sorry about that, I have no plans to use that kind of thing at all (I care little for romance per see). I've never considered myself a paragon of rational thought in any way whatsoever. Again, sorry.

Miniseries: This actually has more ground for interest than it seems. While I'm not exactly sure about a miniseries (spin-offs tend to be poorly recieved) I think one of the things that made "Future-drama" so...sucky was that it had nowhere near enough time to do all of what it did, which damaged the plot to a great extent. Maybe a multi-part episode might work better than a miniseries.

Martin: I like to think he dug himself into a rut, believing that his nerdishness was leading to popularity. It seems to be a reasonable explanation. I used the term "wannabe badass" because it's often used in the same context of cool, maybe the wording was wrong though.

Jess & Bob: Ah, angst I guess it explains Bob (I do like him, he's just over-used in fanfic), and Jesica I guess. Although Jess is just used for pairings with Bart (logic optional) in the vast, vast, vast majority of fanfic. Come to think of it, some bright spark [sarcasm] come up with the idea of Bob/Bart which is both creepy and stupid which is another reason why, again, the whole dementedly stupid fanfic thing wouldn't ever see the light of day, you don't need to panic, I'm stupid but not that stupid!

[Kokoro]

Re Martin: That's reasonable, but I like to think he's just unaware. But hey, ignorance is a bliss.

Re Miniseries: Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of a story arc. I'd like to see a darker atmosphere for it, maybe a little more mature than the regular series. Though, I wonder what the main story would be about...

Re fanfics: I've seen Bob/Bart stories, I don't read them though. Slash fics aren't really my thing, usually because they're so...eh. There are exceptions, though.

[Lisabella]

RE: Jessica/Bart - it's one of the more preffered Bart-related pairings when it comes to fic.  I think it's because she stirred him up more than most of the other girls he's met on-canvas. 

And I somehow knew Bart/Bob existed....